(no subject)

[gsh]

Has yelling at cops "You wouldn't be doing this if I were white." ever accomplished anything useful in recorded history?

Comments

[arashinomoui.livejournal.com]

Probably not, but then again, it makes it no less true, nor human to be offended at perceived unfairness.

[tamarinne.livejournal.com]

If I was getting arrested for breaking into my own home, I don't know that I could only say sensible, rational things.

[gsh]

But he wasn't arrested for breaking into his own home. He was arrested for causing a public disturbance.

[arashinomoui.livejournal.com]

After the cop suckered him into it. Taken from the ponderings here:

The statute authorizing prosecutions for disorderly conduct, G.L. c. 272, § 53, has been saved from constitutional infirmity by incorporating the definition of "disorderly" contained in § 250.2(1)(a) and (c) of the Model Penal Code. The resulting definition of "disorderly" includes only those individuals who, "with purpose to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof ... (a) engage in fighting or threatening, or in violent or tumultuous behavior; or ... (c) create a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of the actor.' "Public" is defined as affecting or likely to affect persons in a place to which the public or a substantial group has access.

The lesson most cops understand (apart from the importance of using the word "tumultuous," which features prominently in Crowley's report) is that a person cannot violate 272/53 by yelling in his own home.

[. . .]

But for the sake of education, let's watch while Crowley makes it worse. Read on. He's staying put in Gates' home, having been asked to leave, and Gates is demanding his identification. What does Crowley do? He suggests that if Gates wants his name and badge number, he'll have to come outside to get it. What? Crowley may be forgiven for the initial approach and questioning, but surely he should understand that a citizen will be miffed at being questioned about his right to be in his own home. Perhaps Crowley could commit the following sentences to memory: "I'm sorry for disturbing you," and "I'm glad you're all right."

Spoiling for a fight, Crowley refuses to repeat his name and badge number. Most of us would hand over a business card or write the information on a scrap of paper. No, Crowley is upset and he's mad at Gates. He's been accused of racism. Nobody likes that, but if a cop can't take an insult without retaliating, he's in the wrong job. When a person is given a gun and a badge, we better make sure he's got a firm grasp on his temper. If Crowley had called Gates a name, I'd be disappointed in him, but Crowley did something much worse. He set Gates up for a criminal charge to punish Gates for his own embarrassment.

By telling Gates to come outside, Crowley establishes that he has lost all semblance of professionalism. It has now become personal and he wants to create a violation of 272/53.

[gsh]

How did the cop "sucker" him into it? Why should I take those "ponderings" as other than pure fiction?

[arashinomoui.livejournal.com]

No reason. They are postulating. There are two people who know what happened, Gates and Crowley.

But as to the theory of how did the cop sucker them into it? Simple, you can yell at a cop all you want from inside your own home. That's private space. But requiring the Professor Gates to step out of his home to get the cop's name and badge number it suddenly becomes "public" space as there is an audience.

Believe what you want. Believe that those in authority should be always treated deferentially even when they are acting in error.

Personally, my assumption is that those in power have to prove that

And you better believe that if I get gruff from an officer, while in my own home, after having just flown from china, and being sick, he is not going to get deferential treatment.

[tamarinne.livejournal.com]

That's splitting hairs, and my point still stands. If the police came into my home and started aggressively questioning me for breaking into my own home, I don't know that I could only say sensible, rational things.

Everybody *knows* they're not supposed to do dumb things. And yet everyone does them. People get tired, frustrated, confused, unhappy, and they say and do things they know they shouldn't. You've never done something in the heat of the moment that you massively regretted later? Maybe you knew you shouldn't have said them as soon as the words were out of your mouth?

[gsh]

I don't see it as splitting hairs though, he wasn't arrested for the suspected b&e.

Of course I've done things I've regretted. What I try very hard to do is when calmed down is to admit that what I had done was boneheaded. I'd feel ever so much better of Gates would say "I shouldn't have yelled at the cop.". I'd feel better if the cop said "I should have just kept walking out the door after he showed me his id."

The odds of either of those happening is very slim in my opinion.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll agree with you that yelling at the cop wasn't clever, but that's because of the power dynamic - Gates, though vaunted and famous, still found himself alone with someone with all the power of that particular moment. So yelling at the cop wasn't clever -- continuing to repeat his request without yelling, and ideally refusing to leave his own house (though I doubt he would have known the significance of doing so) would have been a better choice at the time.

"I shouldn't have yelled at the cop" implies that Gates was in the wrong for doing so, and caused his own arrest. This wrong was entirely on the cop's side, if the cop continued to neither leave nor give a name/badge # after having it demonstrated to him that Gates was in his own house.

"It's sad to realize that in this day and age yelling at a cop who wouldn't leave my premises nor identify himself is a truly bad idea. Were I to relive the other night I'd not have yelled at the cop, but instead called 911 and expressed fear that a police impersonator was in my house." seems a little closer to the case.

[lizkayl.livejournal.com]

You know what, I think they're both in the wrong. The cop was just doing his job, he was told someone broke in, someone fitting that description answered the door.

The guy was exhausted and had just gotten home and was talking to maintenance about the door. And took offense at the accusation. Which was not the cop's fault. He felt disrespected and singled out.

His antagonistic attitude pissed off the cop who then didn't care if it was his house or not, he was gonna haul him in just because he disrespected him.

I wish the default was respect. And I've read up on RaceFail and I can't blame the guy for jumping to assumptions that he was being profiled. But, yeah, it didn't help At All.

[gsh]

I fully agree both sides share in the fault.

[petrona.livejournal.com]

See, this part gets to me "he was gonna haul him in just because he disrespected him". Yes, that was the reason he arrested him, but that is not a legitimate reason. That was an ego trip on the officer's part. You don't get to arrest someone who raises their voice at you because you accused him of robbing his own home and yes, I doubt it was done in a respectful manner on the part of the cop, and I too would have been irked and probably not be particularly calm or quiet about it. But until you have been pulled over for driving a Mercedes Benz through an iffy neighborhood, for the sole offense of being black, it's hard to rationalize the response.

[lizkayl.livejournal.com]

I'm looking at this from the view point of the cop. He gets people respond aggressively to his questioning every day. Often, people he wouldn't have expected escalate the situation quickly. Gates was already pissed and aggressive and was behaving with 'disorderly conduct'. Which is a legit offense. He was in his own house and the cop was anxious that he could find a weapon in the house and/or attack him.

[arashinomoui.livejournal.com]

Disrespect is not against the law.

I posted a link previously of a blog discussing the disorderly conduct law, what it means, and an interpretation of how it can be applied in the events.

[petrona.livejournal.com]

Actually he was arrested after following the cop out of the house to his own porch. He was asking, repeatedly for the cop's name and badge number, when he turned around and slapped cuffs on him. The cop was not in fear of him at all. And if the cop though it was a legit offense why were all charges dropped?

[gsh]

According to the cop, he did identify himself.

I've read the police statement. I've read Gate's statement. The two don't seem to be describing the same event at all.

[gsh]

Is arresting him for creating a public disturbance legitimate?

[petrona.livejournal.com]

How is it a public disturbance to be asking a cop for his name and badge number, while on the porch of your own home?

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Don't know, but there are times it still seems appropriate:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090722/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_analysis/print

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

ah, you're already talking about that.

[gsh]

It may seem appropriate, but when I was 12 my dad told me "Never yell at cops. It doesn't do anything useful."

I think my dad was pretty wise.

[dckermit.livejournal.com]

It may not do anything useful, but it is not an offense for which you can or should be arrested.

As a volunteer firefighter, I interacted with a lot of police officers. Many were highly responsible, courteous individuals. I also met some who became police officers because it gave them authority, and they use that authority to belittle those they interact with to boost their own egos. I expect this is the situation in the matter at hand.

As another example, consider the Navy Seaman who was involved in a minor traffic incident with another driver, who happened to be an off-duty US Marshall. When the conflict escalated into a fight, the Seaman got back into his car and drove away. The Marshall went to his car, retrieved his pistol and shot at the rear of the departing car several times, striking the Seaman in the back and killing him. The Marshall then claimed self defense; fortunately the justice system saw it differently, and the now-former Marshall is serving 15 years for voluntary manslaughter.

[margoeve.livejournal.com]

No. It hasn't.
Neither has shouting "You don't know who you are messing with" to an officer.

When people of ALL races get defensive with an officer in general, no matter the race, it is very often - though NOT always - because they did something wrong and they are trying to distract from that wrongness.

My friend schrathe has a nice story about a gentleman who he pulled over for license plate tags being tampered with with white-out. This is an arrestable offense. The Gentleman got VERY indignant saying "You pulled me over because I'm Black. All you cops see is a N---a and a Crack head."
Schrathe does his best to be calm and professional. Pats the man down, because, again, tampered tags is an arrestable offense. And what should he find but a nice big bag of Crack.
"Oh, that ain't mine."

Few cops start out "racial profiling" or acting "racist". It's years and years of seeing patterns to get them to that point.

That being said, there ARE a number of dumbass cops that make it that much more difficult for the good ones. But there are a number of dumbass PEOPLE who make it just as difficult for the innocent ones too.

[nminusone.livejournal.com]

> > Has yelling at cops "You wouldn't be doing this if I were white."
> > ever accomplished anything useful in recorded history?
>
> No. It hasn't.

Sure it has. Gates won. He got off, the cops got spanked, and the incident attracted so much publicity that even Obama mentioned it. I'd call that somewhere between 97 and 99% success.

I would agree that in general yelling at cops only hurts you and that this is the rare exception that proves the rule. On the other hand, an educated, middle-class white person telling POCs to sit down and shut up while the nice cop does whatever the hell he feels like, *again*... well, let's just say I don't see that message playing too well amongst people who are chronically on the short end of that stick.

I also think people underestimate the "one bad apple" effect. Years ago I was sent to work in Tallahassee and immediately thought "Damn, all the drivers here are totally INSANE!" Later I realized *most* were fine, but 2-3% were prone to do ludicrous things, e.g. intentionally driving the wrong way on a one-way road was quite common. Problem was you couldn't tell *which* ones were crazy, or see them coming until too late, so you had to treat them *all* like they were insane. This is a big problem citizens have with cops, and vice versa.

[arashinomoui.livejournal.com]

Ultimately it gets back to the cereta post of doom on rape, when you can't tell the good guys from the bad guys, it is only natural and (should be) expected that you treat them all as bad guys.